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Politech is the oldest Internet resource devoted to politics and technology. Launched in 1994 by Declan McCullagh, the mailing list has chronicled the growing intersection of culture, technology, politics, and law. Since 2000, so has the Politech web site.
********** In response to: http://www.politechbot.com/p-01814.html Excerpt from BBB response: "Hyperlinking to BBB sites by businesses that are not members of the CBBB or BBB is not permitted." ********** From: STOBrien@wajones.org Received: from smtp.wajones.org (fwuser@smtp.wajones.org [216.12.15.72]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA27262 for <declan@well.com>; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:45:50 -0800 (PST) To: declan@well.com, BCorr@NEAction.org Subject: BBB Responds MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:45:48 -0500 Thanks Brian, I am forwarding this to Declan McCullagh, of PoliTech, from whence my first post about this originated. Sean ----- Forwarded by Sean T. O'Brien/staff/wajones on 03/16/2001 11:42 AM ----- Brian Corr <BCorr@NEAction.org> 03/16/2001 11:25 AM Please respond to BCorr To: riders@topica.com, orgwebmasters@mail-list.com cc: Subject: RE: [Riders] FC: Better Business Bureau tries to ban links to its website Here's what I got from the BBB. A bit more reasonable than it sounded from the BizMove press release.... Thanks, Brian >From: "Cherico, Holly" <hcherico@cbbb.bbb.org> >To: "'BCorr@NEAction.org'" <BCorr@NEAction.org> >Cc: "Zialcita, Beth" <bzialcita@cbbb.bbb.org> >Subject: CBBB Hyperlinking Policy >Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:59:50 -0500 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) > >To: Brian Corr, Director, Technical Support and Training, Northeast Action >30 Germania St. >Boston, MA 02130-2315 >617.541.0500 >617.541.0533 fax >www.neaction.org > >Dear Brian: Beth Zialcita forwarded your email and phone message to me for >response. Yes, the CBBB did contact BizMove to request removal of >hyperlinks to the BBB site and to request they remove copyrighted BBB >content, which they had framed within <<CBBB Hyperlink Statement.doc>> >their web site. However, BizMove's communications to the news media on this >issue contained inaccurate information, and did not accurately reflect what >we had requested. Our hyperlink policy and underlying reasoning is detailed >in the attached statement, which I've also reprinted below. Give me a call >if I can provide additional information. Thanks for contacting the CBBB for >our side of the story. > >Holly Cherico >VP-Communications >Council of Better Business Bureaus >phone: 703.247.9311 >email: hcherico@cbbb.bbb.org > >Statement by the Council of Better Business Bureaus (CBBB) on BBB >Hyperlinking Policy > >The press release recently issued by a web site business concerning the >CBBB's hyperlinking policy conveys false information. > >* The CBBB permits and encourage hyperlinks to its web sites >(www.bbb.org > and www.bbbonline.org) from entities that are information sources or >public service-oriented, such as news media organizations, government >agencies and search engines. Such sites may hyperlink to BBB web sites >without prior approval. In addition, commonly known consumer and/or business >information sources (like Chambers of Commerce or the AARP), online >directory distributors, Internet portals and legitimate educational >institutions and trade associations may also link to BBB sites with advance >approval. > >* For-profit web sites that market or sell products require careful >evaluation before the CBBB can permit their use of the BBB name in a >hyperlink or by any other means. The BBB is a unique organization, with a >business ethics focus. Through a 90-year reputation for credibility and >impartiality, consumers have come to know the BBB and trust its role in >upholding fairness in the marketplace. When consumers see the BBB name on a >business web site, they typically assume that the business has met BBB >standards or is somehow approved by the BBB. This was the case with the web >site at issue, which sports numerous BBB hyperlinks and references in close >proximity to its advertised products, and also frames BBB web site content >on its site. A consumer, who was confused as to the web site's BBB >membership, contacted the CBBB. > >* The BBB system has a use of name and logo policy for businesses in >the traditional and online marketplaces; there was a clear need to clarify >this policy with regard to use of the BBB name or trustmarks in hyperlinks. >Since 1995, when the first BBB central site was launched, businesses have >requested hyperlink permission, and consumers have asked for clarification >regarding BBB hyperlinks and references that appear on various sites. > > CBBB policy permits businesses that have committed to abide >by BBB membership standards to hyperlink to information sections of the CBBB >or BBB web sites under certain parameters. That's because the BBB knows >that such businesses have a satisfactory report, will promptly respond to >customer disputes, and have committed to uphold truthful advertising and >other business standards. > > Hyperlinking to BBB sites by businesses that are not members >of the CBBB or BBB is not permitted. Consumers are not well served when a >web site creates confusion regarding its affiliation with the BBB through >inappropriate use of our name (the hyperlinks in question do use the BBB >name). > >* When advised by an Internet user or BBB staff person that a >non-member is using the BBB name on its site, the CBBB or relevant BBB >contacts the business. Most businesses remove the BBB hyperlinks, when >requested. Upstanding businesses do not want to mislead consumers, and do >not seek to trade unfairly on the BBB name or credibility to sell their >products. > >* The CBBB is not willing to compromise the long-term interests of the >online marketplace for the sake of increasing traffic to BBB web sites. The >CBBB agrees that the Internet is meant to be consumer-friendly; supports >hyperlinks as a valuable tool for Internet users, when not misleading in >nature; and operates self-regulation programs to foster a safe, successful >online marketplace. One of the first consumer service organizations to >develop a web site, the CBBB has continued to expand the volume of BBB >information and services available through the Internet. It doesn't serve >the long-term interests of the online marketplace, however, to have >fraudulent advertisers, scam artists, or less-than-ethical businesses >trading on the BBB's credibility to sell products online. The BBB system >will continue to protect the value of the BBB name in the traditional and >online marketplaces. > >On the issue of copyrighted materials, it is common courtesy and good >business practice to request permission from a copyright owner before >reproducing content from that owner's web site. To do otherwise may amount >to a copyright violation, depending on the circumstances. The owner of the >site in question did not request nor receive permission of the CBBB to place >BBB site content within the confines of his site. Depending on the point of >entry to the site in question, visitors can find content from the BBB site >(actual pages from the BBB web site, including the online complaint form, >directory of BBBs, and consumer and business educational materials) framed >within that site, with a URL related to the business owner's site. This is >misleading and can lead to confusion on the part of the web site visitor as >to who generated, owns and is responsible for that content, and assumption >that display of the BBB pages and content is affiliated with or approved by >the BBB. > ># # # At 07:26 AM 3/16/01 -0800, stobrien@wajones.org wrote: >I cannot believe nobody has responded to this, so here goes: > >Ellery's concern reflects some of the sentiments expressed in a recent >news item in PC Magazine. Basically, that Webmasters should not be proud >of large numbers of hits/visitors, especially if it crashes a site. >However, I believe this commentary was relevant to ecommerce sites, not to >information sites like most of us are involved with. Lots of visitors >clogging up an ecommerce site and not buying things makes the experience >less enjoyable to the buyers on the site. > >In the case of an information site the more visitors the better (I am not >going to get into the technical details of the accuracy of statistics, >that is a rant for another day). If you are taking the time and spending >the money to create a site that you think provides good and worthwhile >information to the Web public, then it is incumbent upon you to make that >information available to the largest possible audience. The cost of an >industrial strength web hosting solution can be as little as $20/month. >Everyone with a web site needs to think about their PR strategy. If you >know you are going to be on the news or in a major publication, plan for >that, even if it costs you some money, the ill-will generated by a slow or >crashing site will not serve your organization's mission well, and the >good will and information distribution function of lots of visitors to a >well-designed, fast, and robust site and hosting solution is worth every >penny for the education provided the web public about your mission. > >The Better Business Bureau's concern was not about crashing their site, >but that linking to their site exists violates their copyright. This is a >concept I can hardly understand. For example, is it wrong for me to >verbally tell someone I just read a really great book and tell them the >title of the book? That title has a copyright and is someone else's >intellectual property. Suppose I read something on the BBB Web site, which >I can no longer find because, according to their reasoning, it should not >be linked to from search engines, that a certain company has a good/bad >reputation. Can I share that information, if not, can I tell people the >URL for the BBB orally? > >The BBB's second concern was that links to them imply some sort of a >relationship between the linker and the linkee. (What Internet rock have >their lawyers been hiding under to have this idea? This has never been the >case on the Web.) I understand the idea of it being polite to ask if you >can link to other sites, but I also find it absurd. We are often asked >about links to our site, we say yes even if it is a group we do not agree >with because 1) we cannot stop them, 2) we want people to come to the >site, even if they arrive from a site that is dedicated to the opposite >position, maybe we can convince them that we are right, and 3) we do not >want to spend our precious Web development time chasing down permission >from others to link to their site. This could take a lot of time, we have >links to several hundred organizations on our Web site. > >In the specific case of the BBB the course of action they should have >taken/should pursue is to ask people to include in the text around their >link that a link to the BBB does not imply a relationship between the two >sites and that the information on the BBB site is copyrighted by the BBB >and users should check with the BBB regarding appropriate use. This is >cumbersome, but allows people to find the BBB and does not generate ill >will from 9700 links to www.bbb.org (according to Google--this does not >mean 9700 sites, but 9700 links to www.bbb.org on the part of the web >Google has indexed). Related to this, it is wise for webmasters to include >text somewhere on their site along the lines of: "XYZ Organization >provides hyperlinks to many other web sites operated by a >other organizations. Links to other sites are merely for information and >in no way imply endorsement or control of the content of the sites linked >to. Our privacy policies do not apply to these linked sites." > >I hope this perspective helps. I welcome further debate. > >Sean > > > > > >Ellery July <ejuly@nwaf.org> >03/15/2001 09:45 AM >Please respond to ejuly > > > To: riders@topica.com, orgwebmasters@mail-list.com > cc: > Subject: RE: [Riders] FC: Better Business Bureau tries to > ban links to its website > >I understand the BBB concerns. Having links to your site puts a lot of >pressure on your system. > >I consulted with a non-profit organization which have had their web >servers >crash because a local news program gave out their web address. It became >like a DoS attack and people complained to them when they could not access >the site. They went from about 6500 hits a month to 11,300 hits the hour >before the web server crashed. Little did anyone know that they were >hosting >the site on a 256k DSL line. They also temporarily lost the ability to get >and send email. > >The organization did move its web site to a hosting service and that >increased their costs. > >Having also worked with people at First Call for Help and talked with >people >at crisis lines they will tell you that if a story is done on TV or radio >and their number is given out they get a rush of calls in a short people >of >time. If they are not prepared people may not be served well. > >We have never denied anyone from creating a link to our site but we do let >them know that we host our own web site give them our specs. > >Whenever I create a link to another organization, I always ask. It is the >polite thing to do. > >ellery july >Technical Lead >Northwest Area Foundation >332 Minnesota >E -1201 >St. Paul, MN 55101 >p 651-225-3895 >f 651-225-7695 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: stobrien@wajones.org [mailto:stobrien@wajones.org] >Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 3:10 PM >To: riders@topica.com; orgwebmasters@mail-list.com >Subject: [Riders] FC: Better Business Bureau tries to ban links to its >website > > > ----- Forwarded by Sean T. O'Brien/staff/wajones on 03/14/2001 04:07 PM >----- > >If the below message is accurate, it's part of a disturbing trend that >I've >been chronicling for a while. The Better Business Bureau appears to be >acting like a bully, and not a particularly bright one at that. > >Everyone from news organizations to search engines relies on unapproved >linking to inform their audience and stay in business. Critics use links >to >identify companies or groups that should be the target of boycotts. >Companies link to competitors, customers, and suppliers. Trying to claim >copyright in your URL shows not just a lack of legal clue, but an absence >of Net-savvy. > >The U.S. Copyright Office says (37 C.F.R. 202.1) works "not subject to >copyright" include "words and short phrases such as names, titles, and >slogans." (http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfr-retrieve.html#page1) >Presumably that would apply to URLs as well. > >For background: >http://www.politechbot.com/p-01589.html (news sites try to charge for links) >http://www.politechbot.com/p-01185.html (journalists and linking) >http://www.politechbot.com/p-01667.html (decss and linking) > >I invite the BBB to clarify its position. > >-Declan > >********* > > >From: "Meir Liraz" <meir@bizmove.com> > >To: <macauthority@cobb.com> > >Subject: The BBB claims links on other sites pointing to its Website are > >copyrighted > >Sender: "Meir Liraz" <meir@bizmove.com> > >Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:52:49 +0200 > > > > > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > >Attention: Business and Internet - editors > > > >------------------------------------- > >The Better Business Bureau demand that Websites remove > >links pointing to its Website claiming hyperlinks on > >other websites that point to BBB site are copyrighted > >------------------------------------- > > > >March 14, 2001: The Better Business Bureau Council adopted a new policy > >recently. It started approaching Websites across the Internet that >contains > >links pointing to its Website, demanding that all links pointing to BBB > >Websites be removed. The BBB bases its request on the premise that since > >the material on its Website is copyrighted, Websites need BBB permission >to > >present links pointing to its sites. Currently there are more than 10,000 > >Websites on the Internet that contain links pointing to the BBB website. > > > >BizMove.com is a privately owned business that maintains a Website >titled: > >"The Small Business Knowledge base" (http://www.bizmove.com). The > >BizMove.com website is geared towards small business owners and contains > >various guides and resources. One of the pages on the BizMove.com site > >contains links pointing to various pages on the BBB site (see: > >http://www.bizmove.com/BBB/index.htm). > > > >Earlier this week the BizMove.com webmaster received an email signed by > >Beth Zialcita from the Council of Better Business Bureaus, Inc., >demanding > >that BizMove.com remove all links on its site that point to the BBB > >Website. In the e-mail Mrs. Zialcita claims that since the links point to > >pages that contains BBB copyrighted material websites need its permission > >to present links pointing to BBB site (See below the full text of the BBB > >email). > > > >In a reply to the BBB email, Meir Liraz, President of BizMove.com >indicated > >his refusal to comply with the BBB request adding that BizMove.com will > >continue to present on its Website hyperlinks pointing to BBB sites. > > > >In regard to the BBB request, Mr. Liraz commented that he is willing to >go > >to court to protect the right of Websites to present hyperlinks pointing >to > >other sites without the need for permission to do so from the sites in > >question. > > > >Commenting on the new BBB stand, an Internet industry source said that if > >the courts adopt the BBB interpretation of the copyright law it means a > >major upset for some of the biggest players in the Internet business >arena. > >Names like Yahoo, Alta Vista, Excite and Lycos base their whole business > >models on presenting searchers with lists of links pointing to various > >websites, and they don't ask for permission from firms to present > >hyperlinks pointing to their sites. > > > >The Council of Better Business Bureaus is the umbrella organization for >the > >Better Business Bureau (BBB) system, which was founded in 1912 and is >today > >supported by 250,000 local business members nationwide. The BBB is also > >supported by more than 300 national corporations and by 132 local Better > >Business Bureaus. According to its mission statement the BBB is >"Dedicated > >to fostering fair and honest relationships between businesses and > >consumers, instilling consumer confidence and contributing to an ethical > >business environment" > > > >BizMove.com is a privately owned publishing firm. BizMove.com maintains >The > >Small Business Knowledge Base Website (http://www.bizmove.com) and is the > >publisher of the Managing a Small Business CD-ROM and various additional > >information products geared towards entrepreneurs and small business > >owners. > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------- > >Here's the text of the Email sent by the BBB to BizMove.com: > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Zialcita, Beth [mailto:bzialcita@cbbb.bbb.org] > >Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 4:28 PM > > > >Subject: BBB links > > > >To the Webmaster: > > > >As a member of the Council of Better Business Bureaus' (the Council) >Legal > >Department, I am writing about your hyperlink to Better Business Bureau >web > >site located at http://www.bizmove.com/BBB/index.htm. > >I must ask that you delete immediately and remove any hyperlinks to our >web > >site. > > > >As a matter of policy, the Better Business Bureau does not sponsor, >endorse > >or approve companies. Your hyperlink to www.bbb.org may imply or mislead > >consumers into assuming that our organization supports your business or > >that there is a business relationship between us. In addition, materials > >from our web site is copyrighted, and, therefore, cannot be linked to > >without permission from the BBB. Presently, we are only allowing links >to > >government agencies, educational institution, news media and members of >the > >BBB. > > > >I trust the Council can rely upon your immediate removal of the Better > >Business Bureau hyperlink to our site from your site. > >Please contact me at bzialcita@cbbb.bbb.org if you have any further > >questions about this matter. > > > >Thank you for your cooperation. > > > >Beth Zialcita > >Online Trademark Enforcement Specialist > >Council of Better Business Bureaus, Inc. > >------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Contact Information: > > > >Beth Zialcita > >Online Trademark Enforcement Specialist > >Council of Better Business Bureaus, Inc. > >bzialcita@cbbb.bbb.org > > > >Meir Liraz > >President, BizMove.com > >meir@bizmove.com > >------------------------------- >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list >You may redistribute this message freely if it remains intact. >To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html >This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >____________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A -- Learn More. 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